Dog Trainer in Lincoln County Caught on Video: Is it Training or Abuse?

Categories: Animals, Crime
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Trainer Ed Nelson stands accused of abusing this yellow lab
Trainer Ed Nelson of Lincoln County openly admits it: Teaching hunting dogs how to fetch ducks and geese safely and effectively requires the use of force -- at least sometimes.

The legal question is this: Where's the line between "force training" and abuse? 

The Lincoln County Sheriff believes Nelson crossed that line on July 28, 2010. That was the day that someone secretly shot a video of him whipping an unruly pup at Dakota Labradors -- his training facility in Old Monroe.

On May 2, 2011, Nelson was charged with misdemeanor animal abuse, punishable by one year in prison and/or a $1,000 fine.  This week, he told Daily RFT that he wants to defend himself in front of a jury.

"I'm not an animal abuser," he insisted. "I didn't do anything wrong."

Training a dog to retrieve waterfowl is a big deal. A rambunctious canine that doesn't follow instructions runs the risk of jumping in front of a firing shotgun (and also, might scare the birds away). So sportsmen drop thousands of dollars to have their dogs trained to obey specific commands.

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Nelson, a retired McDonnell Douglas employee, says he's been training dogs for 15 to 20 years. During that time, he's worked with some 500 animals and helped them earn more than 200 "titles" (distinctions given to dogs that do well in formal field trials). 

"My clients are doctors, lawyers, businessmen," Nelson says. He's even trained dogs for William K. "Billy" Busch of the Busch brewing dynasty. [Disclosure: Nelson has also trained dogs for certain members of this reporter's family].

But by July 2010, Nelson says, he'd been having problems with one of his neighbors. He believes it was she who clandestinely filmed him from behind a fence.

On the day in question, Nelson was training a yellow lab named Bo using the "force fetch" method. The basic idea of force fetch is that you apply discomfort to a dog until it does what you want.

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It's simple conditioning: The dog figures out that the way to escape the discomfort (be it from a shock collar, or pinch on the ear) is to accomplish the task at hand.

There's disagreement among trainers over how much force should be used, and how much reward should follow. Checkout different viewpoints here, here, here and here.

But it's clear from the video that the yellow lab was a tough case, and Nelson does not spare the rod.

"That dog was wild as the wind," Nelson says. "I told [the owner], 'We may have to use drastic measures to turn this dog around.'" In the video, Nelson and an assistant used both a whip and shock collar on Bo.

CLICK HERE TO WATCH THE VIDEO (it takes a second to load)

A sheriff's deputy who saw the video testified later in court records:
The shocking was not consistent with typical use of a shock collar for training. The pain level of the dog seemed to be excessive and the animal can be heard yelping and cowering down clearly in fear. [Nelson] strikes the dog....in what is in my opinion an excessive and brutal manner. The video is what I would describe as shocking in its....lack of compassion toward the animal in what could not be interpreted as training.
Whoever shot the video sent it to People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), who in turn sent it the Lincoln County Sheriff's office.

A deputy interviewed Nelson on April 28, then described the conversation in a probable cause statement. Here's an excerpt:

Nelson denied ever striking a dog with force. Nelson stated he only would use the "heel training stick" (which is about 36 inches in length, made of braided leather, is flexible and would accurately be described as a whip) to touch the front or back of the dog for heel training. Nelson insisted he never has struck a dog and never would. I then showed Nelson the video of him striking the dog....

When seeing himself strike the animal he stated the dog was a very difficult dog and he would not even try to train a difficult dog like that again....

Nelson stated this incident.....was the only time he ever hit a dog with a heel stick

CLICK HERE TO READ THE PROBABLE CAUSE STATEMENT

"That dog is totally turned around," Nelson told us earlier this week. "He's a great hunting dog." He says the owner, Doug Beasley of Leavenworth, Kansas, was notified of the incident on the day it occurred. Beasley did not immediately respond to a phone call from Daily RFT.

Nelson maintains that he grows attached to the canines he trains.

"I pour my heart and soul into these guys," Nelson says.

(As we reported in our recent feature "Fowl Play," celebrity hunter Jeff Foiles accidentally shot a dog in the winter of 2007-2008. Nelson had trained that particular dog. When Nelson heard the bad news, he says, he "cried like a baby"). 

Nelson says that, since the abuse charge was filed, his license has been revoked by the Missouri Department of Agriculture.

His case is 11L6-CR00527 - State of Missouri v. Earl E. Nelson

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149 comments
Leonard Cecil
Leonard Cecil

I would rather say, that I cannot judge the man, but I can judge methods. When you think about it from the purely practical viewpoint, he was "training" a retriever. A Labrador Retriever - color immaterial. This is a dog that has been genetically "programmed" to retrieve. Just like a Golden RETRIEVER, a Flat-Coated RETRIEVER, a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling RETRIEVER, a Curly RETRIEVER, a Chesepeake Bay RETRIEVER. Retrieving is what they do.  Experienced trainers such as Robert Milner - who is pretty much seen as the pope of American RETRIEVERS, who used to do forced fetch have long since moved on, realizing, that such brutal methods are simply not necessary to acheive a reliable retrieve, neither in sight nor out of sight. Neither with or without "hold". I have a Flat-Coated Retriever which has been positively trained (don't start with the "purely positive" - you'll only show your ignorance and prejudice) using Clicker Training techniques both with and without the clicker. Her retrieve is spotless, her hold-give is spotless. She has never, ever been hit, yelled at, shocked or whipped. She's made mistakes and we've worked at getting high-level technical success, all without corrections. All without violence, all without losing our cool. It's not rocket science. But I did have to admit to myself, that I did not know how else to do it. Either my dog would be broken along with my relationship to her or I had to re-educate myself FIRST. Which I did.  To quote the great German trainer and behavioral biolgist Dr. Ute Blaschke-Berthold who has worked with more dogs/people teams than I'll ever see: "Wer sagt, zuverlässiges Verhalten bei diesem oder jenem Hund nicht ohne Strafe erreichbar ist, sagt nichts über den Hund aus, sondern beschreibt erst einmal seine eigenen Fähigkeiten." Whoever says, that dependable compliance from this or that dog is not possible to achieve without (physical) punishment, isn't saying anything in particular about the dog, but rather is ascribing this to his own level of competence. (translation LC) In short, there is no need to resort to pain and it's avoidance (google "negative reinforcement" and "avoidance training" to get genetically pre-programmed traits. And now we come to the REAL stickler of the issue: If there are non-painful, non-violent, positive oriented methods to acheive training objectives, why choose those that are pain based? Certainly not because they are better or easier or quicker. Robert Milner is not alone in showing how effective these are. Helen Phillps for example or Philippa Williams (at Crufts, no less) demonstrage this every day with scores of dogs. No one can legislate or dictate ethics, but before you do something to hurt your dog in the name of training, think about those with dogs and similar training goals who don't need pain or intimidation to reach the same goals. Are you still ok with doing that to your "best friend"? Because he's "just a dog"?

Doglover
Doglover

Weowned...are you this jerks wife? When a good trainer goes to train a dog for a specific task...they always temperament test the dog to see if the dog will do it? You are showing your ignorance and your blind acceptance of this mans actions is ..well it is scary? You need to have a shock collar put around your neck with someone holding a whip.... Let's see if I use your reasoning..you're a women...women 50 yrs. ago made cookies ..so let's say you have exactly 3 minutes to make some cookies...if you don't do it...I will shock you and whip you at the same time... Shameful that the citizens of his state didn't put him away for a long time... Sure would have loved to hear hw he got raped in prison....

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

What????????????  A bit excessive?  What planet do you people live on?  I think PETA sucks as much as you do, but there is not one shred of a reason for any dog to have to undergo that level of abuse, or even a light swat for God's sake, to be properly trained.  Have you ever seen Denise Fenzi's Schutzhund performances?  Have you ever seen Emily Larlham's trick dogs?  Have you ever seen Helen Philips' gun dogs?  None are trained with pain.  Yet they all perform at an exceptionally high level.

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

Readers, please refer to the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior Position Statement on the use of dominance theory in dog training.  They say don't use it, and they ask veterinarians NOT to refer their clients to trainers who use it.  

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

Pain is a motivator.  It is NOT an excellent one.  Modern studies show that dogs that learn through positive reinforcement retain learning longer.  Science also has verified the usefulness of marker training, and has proven that using a clicker is even better than using one's voice to mark proper reinforceable behavior.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  Please give me any citations you have about pain (positive punishment) being a BETTER motivator than positive reinforcement.  Even as far back as 1967, Martin Seligman showed that dogs become "learned helpless" in response to a series of shocks.  You are arguing against the entire body of knowledge we now possess about learning, motivation, and canine behavior.  That is not opinion, it's science.

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

So glad to see a Pit Bull advocate NOT using harsh training.  Right on, rescue friend in arms.

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

I saw a TERRIFIED, CONFUSED, LEARNED HELPLESS dog.  What's wrong with your body language reading skills????????????/

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

By the way, have you read the most recent study about spanking being linked to mental illness?  I bet you took the chance with your own kids, though.  And, I bet you were spanked and think it didn't harm you.  In reality, though, it made you more aggressive, as evidenced by your attitude of it being just fine and dandy to beat dogs.

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

I hope he never gets to own or train a dog again - EVER

Anne Springer
Anne Springer

Ed did do something wrong.  He refused to progress when we learned better ways of training that don't require abuse.  We no longer beat carriage horses to death when they cannot pull anymore on a hot day.  That happened because of one man speaking out.   Someday, we will no longer shock dogs to make them retrieve.  If you have never read "Don't Shoot the Dog" then you have no idea how easy training can be, with never a single reason to resort to the kind of ignorance you currently espouse.  "Uneducated people and organizations"????  Oh, do you mean the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior?  Last I heard, an advanced degree qualified as "educated."

loves2hunt
loves2hunt

Stupid fat f*ck, I hope someone tethers his fat ass to a treadmill and whips/shocks him while he runs himself to death.

Rjhager
Rjhager

What a Hoosier. Screw u Ed!

jAGGER
jAGGER

Ed has know idea on what is doing, That is not force fetch training, just Edsanger, I own 4 Lab Retrievers and run in AKC Master Hunt Test, ED SUCKS

Training Dog Leash
Training Dog Leash

Among all the animal training center . This is the 1st time I heard about a training that fights against animal abuse . Kudos . Job well done . :)

Training Leash
Training Leash

Wow . Nice training for pets for it causes a fight against animal abuse charges . Thanks for this . Keep posting . :)

Leash Dog Training
Leash Dog Training

Wow . Great thing that established training that fights against animal abuse . Keep going . :D

Msminnamouse
Msminnamouse

"Training a dog to retrieve waterfowl is a big deal. A rambunctious canine that doesn't follow instructions runs the risk of jumping in front of a firing shotgun (and also, might scare the birds away)."

A rambunctious canine that doesn't follow instructions doesn't belong in this line of work then. if you have to punish or force a dog into compliance then that dog is not a good candidate for hunting. Damn the money you spent on an unsuitable dog for hunting unless you want a slave.

Training Leash
Training Leash

Wow . Nice pics . Great article . Worth a share . Thanks for this . :D

golden_eye
golden_eye

as I type this comment my lab Dude is laying next to me, she is a great duck dog and a great family pet. She is the 4th Lab that I have trained to hut birds and by far the best. The one thing I see that stands out more than anything else is the trainer lost his cool. When you get to that point the session MUST STOP. You have to walk away and compose yourself.

Unfortunatly this is all to common in dog trainers. The customer drops of a dog for a predetermined amount of time and expects a predetermined result, when the trainer realizes that the day is rapidly aproaching that the customer is coming to pick up the finished product this is what happens.

I am sure Ed is a nice enough guy, However I do believe he should take up fishing and leave the training to the pro's.

Training Leash
Training Leash

Wow .  Great article . Animals should also be treat right and well because like us human , they also have feelings . Thanks for sharing your insight in fighting animal abuse charge . :D

Kevin
Kevin

I sent my 1 year old pup to Ed to be trained.  He was a very excited dog in that he would tumble head over rear when he reached the training bumper.  3 months and alot of money later, my lovable lab would not even come out of his kennel at Ed's facility on a particular visit, ran to my truck door, wouldn't swim, walked to get bumpers, and walked back and hesitated in the last few feet to finish the retrieve.  Not the fun loving excited lab I dropped off.  If I move my hand quickly to him, to this day he closes his eyes and backs away.  It took me over two years to get him even remotely excited about retrieving again as many friends with retrievers all said something bad happened to my dog.  I trusted another trainer to work with my dog again a few months ago and he said my dog was the third dog we had to "rehabilitate" from Ed.  I am thankful to say in a short 2 months with a new trainer, my dog is a nice pet and hunting companion, as he still won't retrieve bumpers with any enthusiasm because of the pressure (that's pc for saying someone beat the hell out of him) that was put on my dog to retrieve.  My dog that wouldn't retrieve now obeys all the basic commands quickly with his tail wagging  retrieved every duck on command over 2 days for my hunting crew 2 weeks ago on his inagural hunt.  I don't have any problem with an e-collar as I do use it lightly to get my dogs attention, but doing that to any dog is unacceptable and I hope the assistant never gets a license either for standing there and watching that.  I tell everyone I know about my experience and will probably take legal action against both of them after seeing this video because I can only imagine my dog had the same experience considering Ed told me it took 4 weeks for my dog to learn force fetch.  I don't have any problem with being hard on a dog, but that is ridiculous.  I have a friend who had a lab trained by Ed who was a good hunter, but had to be put down because of aggression and recently met another hunter who had his dog trained by Ed initially as well, and had to have a different trainer "rehabilitate" his dog too.

Charlie
Charlie

I am in shock that some of you people do not find this abusive!  It is horrible! The dog yelping in pain was not abuse to you?  If you can watch this video and find nothing wrong  then something is very messed up.

Droolmill
Droolmill

This is clearly abuse. This person who calls himself a "trainer" does the rest of us, who are true professional trainers utilizing positive reinforcement (and went to school to learn the science of operant conditioning), a great disservice. I sincerely hope the judge in this case sees this "training" as a clear case of abuse.

Helix Fairweather
Helix Fairweather

I would be curious to know if the author, Nicholas Phillips, would have this man train his dogs again after watching this video.

Cinder Wilkinson-Kenner
Cinder Wilkinson-Kenner

There is absolutely no reason to use any of these types of "tools" or this type of abuse to train dogs.  This is the type of abuse that is used by people who lack an actual skill set which allows them to train well.  There are many, many positively trained performance dogs, from hunting dogs, to police k-9 units, to Guide Dogs for the Blind, all must be precise, reliable, and bonded with people.  There is much research showing that positively trained dogs actually perform better and more reliably than dogs trained with correction based or punitive training, and what this man is doing in the video does not constitute training in any way, under any definition.  Because the dog was terrified, and pulled the lead between the mans legs, he beat and shocked the dog repeatedly.  That isn't training, it's being vengeful, and cruel.  He didn't teach the dog anything, except possibly that he was  a cruel, dangerous and unreliable man. This is why many truly professional trainers who have nothing to hide are advocating for better regulation and standards for our industry. There are very clear definitions of what constitutes abuse, and what is an ethical standard of treatment for dogs in training, and this does not fall within those guidelines.  I hope he goes to jail, pays the maximum fine, and is never allowed to interact with another dog for the rest of his life.

Cinder Wilkinson-Kenner, KPA CTP, CPDT-KA

Jimmy
Jimmy

Seriously,you people have to stop feeding the troll named Weownem.  You wont change his/her mind, whatever your argument is.  Better to just carry on with the realization that there are people in this world that you wont agree with. 

Side note to Weownem: You're screen name says it all.  

jtwaldie
jtwaldie

ignorance is contagious it seems. One cannot be taught compassion and empathy. One either has it  or not. No compassion or empathy is shown in the beating and torture of this canine. This so called trainer needs to be locked under the jail. For one second, just one, imagine a 3 year old child with a leash, shock collar or prong collar in this situation. Then imagine this child being beaten because he has soiled himself. JUST IMAGINE IT! Does it make any difference to the proponents of this "style" of training?

rowdy1
rowdy1

THIS is not training OR force fetching...this IS ABUSE! This guy needs to do jail time and people need to QUIT sending dogs to him. You NEVER train a dog through PAIN or fear! The dog was cowering and trying to get away. The beating with a rod was EXCESSIVE! You could tell by the cussing that this guy was frustrated and taking it out on the dog. I hope that Doug Beasley is HAPPY with his canine companion now that he is such a "great hunter"...and embarrassed by what he put his dog through!

Jessy3245
Jessy3245

I’ve read through all of Weownem’s comments and he’s got some valid points.  I’m sure I’ll get a lot of shit for this but he’s right about some really stupid contradictions in society.  If some animals like dogs really did have rights not to be abused as many here suggest than you couldn’t eat meat of anykind, hunt, fish, have pets, accidentally kill an animal, or use any products that come from animals.  Technically animals could hire lawyers or be represented and sue all humans!  I think he’s trying to show people that it really is an all or nothing proposition to give animals rights.  If your give dogs human rights you have to give all animals human rights.  That’s just not possible people and it isn’t reasonable come on! I hate what I saw in the video but I don’t think it rises to the level of a crime n I agree it wasn’t done for pleasure.  It’s unfortunate PETA really has lost sight of the E in their name and feel they have to abuse the spirit of the law to get what they want.

Koenemans
Koenemans

The Comment section is for your comments on the incedent at hand,Which means your view points of the action ,Reguardless of how you feel about the person causing the action at hand ,there are just a few who understand that,otherwise you would realize some of you are no better, You have no clue who may be reading your comments ,whether it be an innocent grandchild ,son, daughter. Your verbal vulgar words could be hurting them and they had nothing to do with it,This man is paying for his actions,Who is gonna pay for  your hurtful,harmful actions.If there is one thing I have learned from this You need to think before reacting reguardless ,because reacting before thinking will get  someone or something hurt.

Gordongwwhite
Gordongwwhite

so, Weownem, how are you related to Ed Nelson? You sure seem to be defending him as if, he is you.................

Stevep
Stevep

Ed Nelson has trained several dogs for me and my family and even though the video seems harsh-he is an excellent dog trainer and loves his dogs. I have noticed over the years that some dogs are very dramatic and have a very low pain threshold. The video showed such a dog. I know it seems harsh to inflict pain on a dog for the purpose of reinforcing behavior that is desired-but it no different than spanking a dog to housetrain them. Anybody who thinks rubbing the dogs nose in feces is still probably cleaning their dogs feces up in the kitchen.  I know that it is politically correct to believe dogs are actually human-but they are not. No need for name calling-we just don't agree.SteveP   

CarlCraver
CarlCraver

Weownem,

I'm impressed and it's clear that you have a real grasp of classical and current ethical philosophy as well as the law.  Are you a philosophy student somewhere? I'm also a bit saddened.  Could you please explain why you are so adamant to deny the rights of sentience to the other animals on the planet?  Why can’t we share the world with all forms of life?  Everything about man’s interaction with the natural world doesn’t have to be about domination.  It is man’s domination that is actually getting us into trouble.

Carl

wrfip1971
wrfip1971

@Kevin We just had a similar experience. We gave our Junior AKC, started UKC and NARAH titled enthusiastic chocolate lab to a trainer Bobby Purser in Texas who was suppost to get a master title If the dog could do it and we would be glad to take him home otherwise not push him to an extreme like break his spirit and burn him. Well 8 months later, we had 1 master pass then 2 fails and no calls or emails from trainer. Felt something was wrong and picked up our dog who was filthy, emaciated with ribs showing, a poor coat, and couldn't even run a test. The vet said he was over 10 lbs too skinny. They ran the health physical, blood work, check for worms and check for possible underlying conditions to make sure it wasn't just passive neglect, but it was WILLFUL NEGLECT from withholding food. Also, signs of obvious abuse. He broke our dogs spirit! We are so upset. There is no reason for this and are sick that we didn't return him to the original trainer in Minnesota who is wonderful but it was out of season (February) and more tests were available in Texas at the time and we DID reference checks and went out to the nice facility. It means nothing. These people shouldn't have access to animals and there should be a place owners review trainers honestly and negative posts can't be removed like on other things. This hush hush in the pro industry needs to stop. He is now starting rehab, but some things can't be erased. Wondering what steps you took? It's 12/4/2012 now. This event for us just happened this last week.

Collette
Collette

I totally agree with you Charlie!  If anyone can watch this video and not be upset there is definitely something wrong.  The dog was actually screaming before he even started hitting him with the leather whip.  He knew what was coming.  Then to beat him because he tried to get away!  This clearly shows that this man does not KNOW anything about dogs.  Teaching them to come or stay does NOT mean beating them to do it!! 

I hope he never gets to train another dog again.  I have been training dogs for over 35 years and I have NEVER taken a whip and beat a dog to get them to do something.  And, yes, I also train for field. 

This was so sad indeed.  I wonder how he would feel if someone did this to him to get him to learn something new?  I know a lot of people out there would like to try.

Weownem
Weownem

THANK YOU JESSY3245!!!  Thank you for understanding the inherent contradictions that are created by organizations like PETA and animal abuse laws.  I have never suggested in all the writing I've done in this comments section that animals should be treated unethically.  EVERYTHING HAS TO DO WITH INTENT.  Harming an animal for pleasure is wrong because it is unethical to be malicious and sadistic for gratification.  Harming an animal for food or to train is not necessarily so.  THERE IS A GIGANTIC DIFFERENCE.  The animal “rights” debate and abuse laws allow extreme subjectivity into our legal and decision-making processes.  I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be codes of conduct with animals, but they must be made with common sense and they MUST DO EVERYTHING TO REMOVE SUBJECTIVITY FROM THE DEBATE just as they do in for people.  The current laws do no such thing and PETA and US Humane Society are far off in suggesting anything so sensible…that would destroy their entire argument.  What happened to Ed is entirely someone's subjective determination of animal abuse.

Also if I may suggest that you not use "human rights" from your comment above.  You can't give a dog human rights.  A dog isn't human.  If dogs had rights they would be dog rights, and cat rights, and pig rights and so and so forth….

Dkhnt
Dkhnt

You're clueless just like Ed.

Weownem
Weownem

Thank you Carl.  I appreciate your view and thank you for being civil...these discussions (as evidenced above) quickly devolve into revolting flaming instead of discussion on the merits.  It saddens me greatly that so many people have an outright hostility to their fellow humans and would in many cases prefer animals to people any day but that is another issue.

I'm not a philosophy student.  You are correct that I am quick to deny animals the "rights of sentience" because we ourselves have tremendous difficulty with what sentience is and means.  Moreover who is to say our definition once defined would be applicable to other living beings regardless of how correct we thought it was.  What we do know is that we are unique among animals on the planet.  We can see it plain as day despite some of the obvious cleverness we see in the animal kingdom.  We see it well enough to know and understand that our world is different from the animal world and that the rules (or lack thereof) that apply to animals doesn't apply to us.  To apply the rules, laws, and ethics of our world to the animal kingdom would be arbitrary and would by default assume that all animals are like us.  Such actions would not just place humankind back in the food chain, but would criminalize any behavior humans undertake to survive on the planet.  I would caution those that would say there is no harm in doing so that they haven't thought that issue entirely through.

Sharing the world with all forms of life is a reality, not a choice.  We need other forms of life to survive.  I am saying that it is possible to share and respect other forms of life without applying normative human values on animals.  It is possible to kill a cow, eat its flesh, and still respect it.  It is possible to train a dog to hunt with an e-collar and still respect it.  It is possible to use animals in scientific research and still respect them.  It is possible to harvest the animals of the forest within reason and still respect them as well.  The two concepts of respect and ownership are not exclusive.  You can own your dog, love it, and use an e-collar and still be ethical.

Domination of the animal world has nothing to do with it.  I don't think humans are consciously trying to dominate anything.  We are however on top of the food chain and like it or not that is where all humans, even those who believe in animal rights, would like to stay.

If you truly believe in animal equality and animal "rights" and that mankinds position in the food chain is wrong feel free to strip off your clothes, give up everything, and re-enter the food chain at your earliest convenience.  You will quickly realize that to many animals, you are not their friend...you are not their equal...you are food....and you are scared.

  

Jessy3245
Jessy3245

Weownem is right.  U people have absolutely nothing to contribute to this debate except insults.  Fuck you too!

mp
mp

Very well thought out response Dkhnt

Charkie
Charkie

 i would like to see you in a jail with a bunch of hard core inmates and let them dominate you a little

Jim
Jim

It isn't punishment.  It's training.  I think that's the point that some people are trying to make here.  Opinions on how to train dogs are different.

Dkhnt
Dkhnt

"Secondly, just because someone calls themself a pro does not mean they can train."Exactly! 

You saying that you are happy with his training doesn't make it right either. I never said the e-collar was a bad thing. 

People who loves dogs would never stoop to that form of punishment. EVER!

mp
mp

First of all, the name calling is pretty ridiculous.  I know it is easy to do online when you don't have to see a person face to face but come on man.  Secondly, just because someone calls themself a pro does not mean they can train.  I recently watched a "pro' fail to pass 5 dogs in one started test.  Please feel free to name a few trainers that you have worked with that do not use shock collars and that have titled as many dogs as Ed.  They deserve to be recognized for getting such great results without ecollars. 

In my post above I did not mean to defend his actions and I even said he may have crossed the line.  I was defending the man himself based on many hours of personal interaction, not just a story in a blog and short video clip.  As far as ruining it for competent dog trainers, how am I ruining it?  I simply said that some dogs need a heavier hand than others and what my experience was with Ed.  Also, what BS am I spreading?  I just said I was happy with Ed's training with my dog and that he really loves dogs.  Do you know of something different?     Finally, according to what I can find the UK didn't ban E collars as you said above, Wales did.  Wales is only a small part of Great Britain.  Is there something I am missing?

Dkhnt
Dkhnt

The dog first tried to fetch the stick, then when ED moved toward the bumper the dog instantly picked up the bumper. He was confused!

No we don't agree on what we see in the video because I have trained with many pros all over the US and you are so clueless you stood there watching fat bastard abuse your dog!I see a confused dog getting beaten and abused with a shock collar because he doesn't understand the task at hand. A good trainer will back up and simplify. How many National Field Champions has fat bastard trained latley?Don't try to make this out to be competent retriever training methods. They already banned e-collars in the UK because of useless turds like Ed. I will not stand idle while you ruin it for all the competent dog trainers by spreading your BS. I hope the court makes an example of him!

mp
mp

Actually Jeff and his partner didn't want his dogs trained to stay at shot.  They felt it gave them a head start.  You can see what that thinking gets you. 

Dkhnt
Dkhnt

You mean like the dog he trained that jumped in front of Jeffs gun?

Seems like the method works well.

mp
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Ed Nelson trained two of my dogs.  I can tell you I trained dogs with him a lot of hours and know the actual person better than I am guessing anyone on this board does.  I can also say I have met few people who care more about dogs.  I have personally seen him cry when giving a dog back to an owner because of the bond he builds with them.  He gladly risk hi his life in a minute to save a dog's life.  Did he possibly go overboard on this dog? Maybe.  Is this normal practice for Ed and does this deem criminal charges?  Hardly.  First of all, this training can save a dog's life.  In hunting situations if a dog jumps in front of a shooter it gets shot.  These aren't dogs who are just pets as many of you most likely have.  By the way, there is nothing wrong with having just a pet.  My wife has a little lap dog and it is great.  These are working dogs and live for every minute of it.  These dogs would rather die than not hunt.  That passion HAS to be harnessed, however, and some dogs need a heavier hand than others.  My dog was one of them and after she was almost shot on a hunt due to breaking at shot I knew she had to be brought under control or she wasn't going to make it.  I can promise you my dog still loves Ed and I will always respect him as a great trainer and huge dog lover.     

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